(no subject)

[thjazi]

Wow it's really quiet around here.

Uh.

So.

HOW ABOUT HUGO SHIFTING OVER ALMOST ALL HIS RADICALS TO BEING STUDENTS, WHAT'S UP WITH THAT.


(it's either that or I start trying to talk about Communion Meal parallels between dinner at the Bishop's and breakfast at the Corinth which is admittedly my current focus but I'm not sure how to even launch into that)


(if this were Tumblr I could tagnatter as I flee but it's not so BALL'S IN YOUR COURT GEN)

Comments

[genarti]

I ACCEPT

...uh, and am tired so I don't have a lot to say, except that I do actually totally want to talk about Communion Meal parallels. That sounds fascinating! And, wow, talk about the joining of earthly and Infinite. (Repeated theme number eleventy-billion, but a big one for sure.)

No, seriously, now you have me thinking about this. Huh.

They're both meals which aren't themselves transformative in any plot-containing way -- the moments of transcendent change come afterward -- but the meal is part of what leads into that transcendent change. Meal, and then moment of falling lower (Valjean stealing the silver from the one person who treated him with respect; Grantaire going from a ranting nihilist in the corner to raving and harrassing everyone while they're trying to build a barricade, with enough obstreperous bad timing that COURFEYRAC of all people snaps at him to shut up, and then passing out cold for a day straight), and then the transcendence: the Bishop's gift that spurs Valjean to change his entire life, the barricade's epic sweep of the future all illuminated with death and symbolism, and for Grantaire the moment of acceptance and really being one of them and part of it before, you know, he dies. But there's nothing at odds with Communion symbolism in sacrificial death after the meal, either.

communion meals

[thjazi]

(if anyone else thinks of a better term than that let me know but these wacky Threaded Discussions seem to benefit from titles? )

WELL FINE IF YOU'RE GOING TO GIVE ME AN INVITATION
Probably just one that will result in me getting my lovely theory proven wrong but HERE GOES:

Structure, structure-- they both follow the same basic structure to pretty remarkable degree! : The Outsider (I can't think of a better summation title for Valjean and Grantaire in their respective situations) comes into the domestic gatherings (not the official-business side) of the representatives of their respective faiths (which, said faiths they've both somewhat renounced, but it's that faith they're renouncing); there's the confession of weakness; the failure to recognize the station of the guides ( and on THAT point I am pretty certain, Hugo's setting it up; he goes out of his WAY to make the monk comparison and have it under discussion apparently just so Grantaire can say Sod a Bunch of Monks but hey let me hang with you guys, just like he has Valjean going on about Bishops for A WHILE while trying to tell the Bishop how much more comfortable he feels there (Do Not Ask Me about Bossuet and Bishop parallels, I might talk about it and this post is long enough), the odd distress over the host's poverty, and of course the bit with candles and light, and is light EVER not Symbolic in this book?

(Of course there are ginormous differences in the two settings, too, but that's why the structural similarities really stand out to me!)

Like you say, the meals themselves aren't the plottiest-- but I think they're important in a couple ways at least. One, there's the sheer bucketing symbolism; two, they are both making the point, to certain degrees, that the Outsider *isn't locked outside*; that there's at least one door open back into the community. So when, following the mutual sharing of good spirits, the Outsider turns back away from all that, it's THEIR choice; they're not just victims being locked out from the community they say they want, they're actively turning against it. And maybe they have to be in that position before they can actively choose to try and rejoin as equal participants instead of on (perceived?) sufferance? IDK IDK I'm reading the last few chapters right now and I'm a sobbing singing mess in general, I'm probably not being very clear, but that's what I've got so far!

(...I happen to also think both meals are setting up the Bishop figures as very trickily making a play to get the outsiders to rejoin the community more fully, but that's probably another post.)

Re: communion meals

[genarti]

(Ooooh. Possibly the Bishop figures' play to draw the outsiders back in is a different post, yes, but I'M INTERESTED IN THAT POST TOO.)

I really like all this, and I think you're dead on about the structural similarities. Right down to the MONKS, WHO NEEDS 'EM?? PASS THE WINE THANKS bit.

One thing I'm turning over in my mind is that the Corinthe breakfast is really a sort of earthy calm-before-the-storm transition to two things. One is, as you mention here, the Outsider thing, and Grantaire's plotline. But the other is that it's the transition to the barricade scenes, which are a different kind of transcendent change for everybody involved. Some of them are at the meal and most of them aren't, but, I dunno, maybe it's significant that that's the place where they all gather? Or maybe that's just significant in the ways we've already talked about, where it's the earthy party crowd observers who pick the spot where the more Abstract Plane-oriented folks settle down too, once the Significant Meal is over. (And particularly Bossuet, the walking plot nexus -- and, wait, isn't it Grantaire who introduced them all to the Corinthe in the first place?)

I dunno, I'm writing this on a mini-break from work and my attention's all split, but this is super interesting to me!