(no subject)

[skygiants]

So I keep wondering why Enjolras expects Marius to show up and be helpful in the Barriere du Maine scene; after all, we're told that after the Great Napoleon Debacle, Marius essentially storms off in a huff and never goes back to revolutionland again. Also, he is Marius. Myself, I can think of about four reasons:

1. Unreliable/ambiguous narrator: Marius had been hanging out with the gang before Napoleongate way more than the text implies.

2. Marius has not been hanging out with the gang, but Courfeyrac trusts him enough that he asks him to run errands sometimes when it would be useful to have an unfamiliar face show up, which he does because of the debt he feels he owes Courfeyrac, and Enjolras interprets this as Marius being way more interested in revolution than he actually is. This would actually be an interesting fic-premise -- Marius Pontmercies his way through a revolutionary errand he knows nothing about; hijinks ensue!

3. Enjolras really is JUST THAT DESPERATE. Maybe all the redshirt revolutionaries have gone home for the summer holidays. Or are dying of cholera.

4. Enjolras is not actually talking about our Marius at all, but about a friend of his named Jean or Pierre or Guifford Marius. Jean Marius has been very lax about showing up to meetings recently and we are VERY DISAPPOINTED in him.

Comments

[elsane]

I HAVE BEEN WONDERING EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

It makes no sense. Mind you, I have been in the habit of mentally dialing back several of Hugo's more hyperbolic statements (for example, the one about Enjolras never having kissed anyone, literally anyone, before the corpse of Mabeuf), but this rather beggars plausibility. I think Hugo wants something vaguely along the lines of number 1 to be true (*cough* I er may or may not be currently flashing up a fic trying to reconcile Marius' timeline wrt the revolutionaries which postulates Marius being coaxed back AFTER Napoleongate), but Marius goes into at least 2 months of distraction and decline regarding Cosette, doesn't he? Enjolras must be awfully optimistic.

There are plenty of redshirt revolutionaries on the barricades a week or so later.

I personally subscribe to 5. Mary Sue syndrome strikes again, but I would kill to see a fic about number 2.

Number 4 actually makes a lot of sense! Enjolras refers to everyone else by their last names! He is clearly referring to some hitherto unknown student named Jean Marius* who has sadly been struck down by cholera! If he meant to refer to OUR Marius he would have said Pontmercy. Or "our Pontmercy friend".



* everyone's first name is Jean it's a law. Actually, this is extremely annoying. Courfeyrac calls everyone by their last names except Marius. Why Hugo why. If they're going to be on first name bases, please give us more first names. :<

[elsane]

*writes fic where everyone tutoies Marius and Marius obliviously vousvoyes back*

*writes fic where aliens occupy Paris and Marius only notices that the price of bread has gone up*

*writes fic where a revolution happens and Marius doesn't notice OH WAIT*

[lannamichaels]

I'd bet on #2, but, oh my god, do I want to read #4. All of #4.

People Who Are Disappointing Enjolras Today: The Marii.

[lannamichaels]

*falls over laughing*

[bobbiewickham]

I think the best explanation is a combination of 2 and the fact that Hugo does tell us Marius stays friends with the ABC bunch (not only Courfeyrac, though Courfeyrac's his only close friend among them) after the Napoleon debacle, and that he and they would do anything to help each other. IIRC, Bossuet is familiar with what Marius is up to even afterwards, and talks like he expects to see him around. Courfeyrac apparently thinks Marius knows what's going to happen at Lamarque's funeral and might actually show up there. Eponine calls them his "friends" and thinks that telling him they're waiting for him is a good manipulative move to help get him to the barricade. And it does affect him, and he does believe they're waiting for him (which: HAH! Marius, you poor sweet goof). So he's been hanging out with them on occasion, and likely he's shown flashes of republicanism that's given them hope for him.

It's definitely not out of desperation, because there are other unnamed ABC-ers, quite apart from all the non-ABC-ers at the barricade, all of whom are more committed and aware of what they're doing than poor Marius.

I like 4, though!

[cahn]

I so want to read these! Oh wait, I did read that last one, and it was great, although soooo depressing. ;)

[miss_morland]

I would kill to see a fic about number 2.

Me too! Almost as much as I want someone to fill that kinkmeme prompt about Marius accidentally joining Patron-Minette. *g*

[genarti]

I have been wondering SO MUCH why everyone refers to Marius by his first name! Seriously, if anyone has any insight at all into an IC justification for this, I would love to hear it.

I could see Courfeyrac doing so once the guy is his roommate; you would think in that case that Marius would reciprocate, but Marius is an oblivious awkward turtle, so I find it plausible that he wouldn't think to. I could also see Marius tending to introduce himself with his first name and expect others to call him by it, because he didn't grow up having a lot of socialization with peers or watching young men interact with each other; he grew up as a kid alone with a lot of old people, so I can completely see him expecting to be called by his first name even in contexts where other people would find that odd. But I don't understand why all the others -- Enjolras, Courfeyrac, all the guys who call their canonical dearest friends by last name -- would do the same, unless Marius were flat-out insisting that he strongly preferred that or something. (And why would he?)

I can fanwank it in my brain as one of those things that just sticks that way, so that no one is totally sure why he's Marius and Jehan is Jean/Jehan Prouvaire (at least some of the time, or anyway at least that one time Enjolras is talking about a hostage trade) instead of just Prouvaire, he just is. But I would really love it if anyone can offer cultural context to make it make more sense.

[genarti]

Ha, I would love to read a fic of #2! That actually makes a lot of sense to me, although I figure it's probably meant to be either #1 or a combination of #1 and #2.

I agree with bobbiewickham that Marius seems to be implied to be hanging around with the Amis at least to some extent, based on their reactions to him and his reactions to them. I also think that that's at odds with what Hugo actually tells us about how Marius has been spending months avoiding everyone, never going back to Amis meetings, wandering sadly around the Luxembourg Garden, spending all his waking hours failing to translate things and then gazing into Cosette's eyes in her garden, etc etc. So either the Amis are all really, really optimistic about their Pontmercy friend, or else Hugo has been getting carried away with flights of exaggeration and forgetting that he actually wants us to believe something more moderate.

Option #4 is totally my favorite option, though, even though I don't for a minute think it's what Hugo actually meant. JEAN MARIUS SERIOUSLY GET YOUR HEAD IN THE GAME.

[elsane]

Yes, this, exactly -- clearly Marius is part of their social circle, frex Joly even brings Marius up as a topic of gossip on the morning of Lamarque's death. I think the picture we're supposed to get is that Marius is an ideologically uncommitted social hanger-on, sort of like Grantaire except more Pontmercy and less...R. But I, like you, find this hard to reconcile with Marius' deep self-absorption. I find the carried away idea very plausible -- doesn't Hugo describe Marius as falling into immobile contemplation of a tree for an hour, in Cosette's company? This is hard to take literally.

Enjolras thinking of Marius at all makes me suspect Marius has been coaxed back to hang out in the Cafe Musain, which isn't, after all, the most formal of political meetings. So if the choice was between two social hangers on, Marius and Grantaire, it's still ludicrous to pick Marius who has no political coherence at this point, but if the other option is Grantaire...

[skygiants]

Re: Marius being part of the social circle, I have been trying to fanwank ways to reconcile everybody knowing him and thinking of him as present with what Hugo tells us about him NEVER BEING THERE< and I've come up with, again, two aspects:

- Marius actually did graduate from law school, so presumably he did go to classes with a bunch of these guys, or at least the ones who ever bothered to turn up to class, and they got used to seeing him around there before he fell into his LONELY ROMANTIC DESPAIR

- Courfeyrac probably turns up ALL THE TIME at the Cafe Musain with "lololol my wacky roommate Marius" stories, so even after Marius goes incommunicado, everyone feels like they know him incredibly well. My brother's roommates and girlfriends totally form topics of family gossip, even though mostly we never meet them!

[skygiants]

I was going to say that Bossuet at least went to classes with Marius, which might explain their familiarity, but of course that's not so because Bossuet dropped cheerfully out of law school at the same time Marius entered it. Still, that might be a way some of them have still been seeing them around until he graduates -- he's probably been having at least a few conversations with Combeferre, because later on we find out that the ONE ACTUAL PRODUCTIVE CONVERSATION that Marius ever manages to have with Valjean goes along the lines of "hey, universal progressive education, good idea, right?" "Yes! Progressive education! Thumbs up!" And you can't imagine him picking that up from Gillenormand.

I still have a hard time reconciling Marius actually hanging out at the Musain with what we're told about his mindset after the Napoleon incident, though -- he's such a generally solitary person, and eventually a solitary and depressed person, and also one with essentially no money that he doesn't borrow from Courfeyrac. Even aside from a disinclination to voluntarily socialize, especially in a place where people laugh at HIM AND NAPOLEON, I can't see him wanting to go anywhere that he might be encouraged to spend frivolously.

[skygiants]

ALL THE MARII. Jean Marius turns up after an extended visit to his mistress in Provence, is VERY CONFUSED AND DISTRESSED to find that the entire revolution has happened without him

[skygiants]

*LOLS FOREVER*

I mean, Les Miserables is basically Hugo's Marius-insert fanfic of the-book-formerly-known-as-Les-Miseres ANYWAY

[skygiants]

I still offer the possible explanation that everyone is just annoyed by the BARON PONTMERCY thing, and as soon as they receive one of his poncy aristocratic business cards they start calling him Marius in protest.

[melannen]

The section around the Barriere du Maine is actually the only part of the Amis & Marius section of the brick that I've read yet, and I was honestly confused by that bit - I've just been assuming that brick!fandom's insistence that Marius wasn't involved with the Amis much at all was an exaggeration to counter the musical version, because it definitely gives the impression that Marius was spending a fair amount of time with them, and even running errands, until the last few months. I am with the people who believe 1) but want 4) to be true.

(everybody's first name is either Jean or Jeanne, this is trufax.)

[bobbiewickham]

Yeah, we're explicitly told he avoids the Musain while remaining friendly with the ABC-ers. So the hanging out must be in other settings. Maybe Courfeyrac takes him out to lunch on occasion, and sometimes one of the others comes along.

[skygiants]

Everything that implies Marius has been hanging out with the Amis -- mostly all the Amis talking about him like they're good friends -- is directly contradicted by the stuff we get that focuses on Marius, which is all about how he is antisocial and avoidant and alone.

. . . . although, wow, now that I think of it, if Hugo was more of a direct-POV writer, that's is yet again a really good representation of the kind of warped perception you get about your relationships when you're really depressed.

(If enough people believe in Jean Marius, he becomes real!)

[skygiants]

"Look, okay, guys, I'm buying, but someone PLEASE come help me make sure Marius occasionally interacts with something that isn't a tree or a female figment of his imagination. Please?"

[melannen]

It is! If we buy into the conceit in which the narrator occasionally remembers that he's supposedly writing history from primary sources, it would make sense if he's working from stories Marius told him for large parts of the Marius sections to be unreliable about this, Marius' memories of the time being distorted by his depression....

[elsane]

So I just came across this bit from 3.5.5: "It was during one of his strolls that he had hit upon the Gorbeau house, and, tempted by its isolation and its cheapness, had taken up his abode there. He was known there only under the name of M. Marius." So maybe he is trying to avoid the "Pontmercy"? But, why? His father's name is still engraved in his heart, why would he shed it when it's such a key part of his sensitive construction of identity? I don't get the sense from him that he is ashamed of living in the Gorbeau house or of making his own way in the world, so it's hard for me to argue that he is worried about sullying the name? I feel like I'm missing some important piece of character logic here...

Interesting point about how growing up as the only child in adult circles might be playing into this.

[elsane]

*snicker* ALL TOO PLAUSIBLE.

[elsane]

I love your second possibility! I'm sure all of the Amis feel they know Marius lolariously well whether they hang out with him in person or not.

He is canonically mentioned as hanging out with Grantaire, Bossuet, and Courfeyrac at least, and I can easily see him being on casually friendly terms with the more earthbound of the Amis, in the kind of way that he would take very seriously.

What I can't square this with is Enjolras, of all people, actually thinking of him as a plausible emissary to the Barriere du Maine. augh. I think I'm repeating myself, I'm circling around to the "Option 5: Marius Sue" bit again; do you suppose I'm supposed to imagine that Enjolras has been socially hanging out with Marius? I... find this rather hard to envisualize... and dreadfully awkward...

[elsane]

(Oh hi I will spam your inbox by replying to half the thread)

Ha, actually, Combeferre is one of the people I have the hardest time imagining Marius hanging out with. Partly because Combeferre was the one who delivered the most devastating lines in Napoleongate, and partly because Combeferre doesn't strike me as having that much spare time and inclination to hang around being social. I can easily see Marius and Combeferre ending up both in a large party, and Marius kind of awkwardly avoiding Combeferre while Combeferre makes gentle friendly overtures until Marius settles down a bit; but I have difficulty imagining Marius actually interacting with Combeferre in smaller groups half as much as he interacts with Bossuet and Joly, say.

Marius' timeline is really vague, but it is four years from 1828 to 1832, so things don't have to be fixed entirely over that time; and in fact Hugo does deign to tell us that after 1830 Marius has cooled down about Napoleon. His finances also go downhill after 1830. I do agree that the Musain will always be awkward for him, and not a comfortable social environment for his taste! I think laughing at him, and being reminded of his own intense past sentiments, is probably the most embarrassing part of it - his politics have gone vaguely well-meaningly republican.

ETA: Here, when he's in a good mood (word to what you and melannen were saying about depression, below) and engaging with the world, he says: "'Have you read the paper? What a fine discourse Audry de Puyraveau delivered!"' so I googled Audry de Puyraveau and discovered he's a pretty hard left politician. I... am still not quite sure how to put all of these pieces together into a coherent whole arguably Marius is not either

But perhaps it's wrong to think about the meetings at the Musain as being critical to the Amis de l'Abaissé; it's an underground organization, it's not going to be about regular formal meetings. Marius' entire social circle being comprised of revolutionaries (and Mabeuf) and revolutionary meetings taking place as casual meetups in restaurants and cafés might be enough for him to seem like an honorary member. (I still can't argue myself around to making Enjolras anymore than wildly optimistic.)

OK I'M DONE WAFFLING BACK AND FORTH.